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swollenlymphnodes
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 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Can't believe I missed how cool this was. Thanks for this Grin, this will definitely prove useful.
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GrinfilledCelt
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Of course. All my links are wonderful, but it's nice of you to say so. =0)
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teknoketa
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| swollenlymphnodes wrote: |
I've always known myself as an introvert, but the opening paragraph really hit home... generally because I can be a pretty dynamic public speaker, but after that, when people come to talk to me, I have no idea what to say except thank whatever compliments they make.
Anyway, never really read Carl Jung and the whole analytical psych profiling thing although I've heard a lot about it and have always wanted to try the Briggs Myers tests.
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Introvert extraordinaire here. I'm also quite good at public speaking. I did it competitively for years, and I've even done teaching and training, which requires you to be "on" and outgoing in front of people. It's also extremely exhausting for an introvert. When I would have training in session, I'd literally come home too tired to do anything but relax or even sleep.
Noticed you talked about Meyers Briggs. There are plenty of online tests that will walk you through it. The "official" test runs more money than any sane person would pay for the same results. Just google it and you'll be well on your way. Personally, I'm an INTJ. Whether or not that's a good thing would depend on who you ask. I genuinely like to be left to my own devices to pursue whatever it is I'm obsessing over. I don't "get" how most people work. I only like socializing with a few people and honestly tend to prefer online socialization to dealing with people since it's much easier to turn it off if I'm tired of dealing with it, a luxury that real life doesn't come with. It's also easier to communicate at the speed that I think at, which doesn't work when I talk.
I want to pick up Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. It comes out tomorrow and has been getting very good reviews on advance copies. It's supposed to be wildly different than the typical introvert-targeted books which center around getting introverts to be extroverts, rather than acknowledging that being an introvert is a perfectly valid way to be. I'll let you know how it is when I get it.
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GrinfilledCelt
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Yes, thanks for posting that article MNB, it was very enlightening. I know what you're saying. Keta. I think we're all introverts here. I sat for two days watching the reunion taking place here, but I just didn't feel like saying anything. (Yes, believe it or not, that happens to me often.)
I particularly liked the part about extroverts not getting introverts. Ever have to babysit an extrovert kid? If you're the only one around, you must be a part of e v e r y t h i n g that kid does. An extroverted kid is incapable of playing by itself, and that doesn't change when they grow up. Lock up an extrovert and an introvert alone together for a day or two and the introvert is very likely end up strangling the extrovert screaming, "SHUT UP! SHUT UP! LEAVE ME ALONE!" or maybe it would go like this:
"There seems to be a problem with your breathing.
No, I don't think so...
There is from where I'm standing. Maybe if I tied a knot in your neck..." - Douglas Adams THHGTTG
Let me know about that book, Keta. It's exactly the kind of book that I would be fascinated with but never actually read. I have learned not to buy such books. I still have Alvin Toffler's Future Shock on my reading list from back in the early 1970's. I still want to read it, too.
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teknoketa
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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I ordered the book yesterday and it has yet to ship. It might get here as soon as Monday, so we'll see once it arrives.
It would be nice if it would be a resource I could use on my coworkers/superiors. At one point someone much higher up in an organization talked down about me because I didn't use eye contact with her when talking about a problem, saying I didn't "dare" to look her in the eye. Never mind the fact that I find eye contact to be rather invasive and uncomfortable... no, it was only about how she saw it.
Thankfully most people just chalk all this up to me being me!
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swollenlymphnodes
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Interesting. Don't know why, but way back in AG days I always had the impression that you were an extrovert. And it still sticks, because when I read your posts, you still sound like an extrovert. Haha. So weird.
Anyway the book certainly sounds like a book to give HR and management from reading the description on amazon.
Some comments on various things on it's amazon page
| Quote: | | She talks to Asian-American students who feel alienated from the brash, backslapping atmosphere of American schools. She questions the dominant values of American business culture, where forced collaboration can stand in the way of innovation, and where the leadership potential of introverts is often overlooked. |
I kind of had this half thought the other day about the sociological/cultural impact on introverts. Asian and particularly in japan, quiet, solitude, unassuming humility is valued. American's are looked at as brash and rude.
Seems like there was a cultural shift along the way
| Quote: | Q: Was there ever a time when American society valued introverts more highly?
A: In the nation’s earlier years it was easier for introverts to earn respect. America once embodied what the cultural historian Warren Susman called a “Culture of Character,” which valued inner strength, integrity, and the good deeds you performed when no one was looking. You could cut an impressive figure by being quiet, reserved, and dignified. Abraham Lincoln was revered as a man who did not “offend by superiority,” as Emerson put it. |
Mind you, it was only a passing thought, but I kind of wondered if that's why introverts gravitate towards asian culture?
Hmmm. Now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder why it can foster the NEET phenomenon so prevalent in Japan? Which would be the extreme case of introversion which probably isn't healthy either. If you think about it an Otaku's interest and abilities fit the introvert skill set.
Regarding the work environment
| Quote: | Q: You discuss how we can better embrace introverts in the workplace. Can you explain?
A: Introverts thrive in environments that are not overstimulating—surroundings in which they can think (deeply) before they speak. This has many implications. Here are two to consider: (1) Introverts perform best in quiet, private workspaces—but unfortunately we’re trending in precisely the opposite direction, toward open-plan offices. (2) If you want to get the best of all your employees’ brains, don’t simply throw them into a meeting and assume you’re hearing everyone’s ideas. You’re not; you’re hearing from the most vocally assertive people. Ask people to put their ideas in writing before the meeting, and make sure you give everyone time to speak. |
I have two observations about this. First is my total agreement in this shift in particularly larger businesses and corporations. 2nd, is more of a passive questioning of this idea's validity.
1) Since graduating from college, I've held 4 particular jobs in a similar field, either engineering and construction (project management) or engineering/design. I note that based on her premise, the best environment is a quiet secluded one. And it's true that the jobs I loved the most are the one's that I was minimally micromanaged and had my own private space. The other two had that 'open air' office where you could see what everyone was doing. The big global engineering company I worked for bought cubicles where you could purposely see everyone's crap. That same big global corporation loved having meetings, team building exercises, marketing crap that I thought was all a waste of time... especially with the huge workload we had.
My latest job is just like my first, in that I have my own private corner. No one can see me. But I get everything done. Never mind that I can take breaks watching or reading random stuff or post on this forum... and I can get distracted for long periods of time... but when I need to get stuff done, I do. I see my boss like once or twice a week... he emails me most of the time. And he could care less what I do as long as the work gets done. Now the work isn't easy, I'm doing some crazy s*** that I've never done before, but the solitude, gives me a chance to figure it out. It's a win win.
2) Now the validity questioning. I don't know if I'm attacking anything she has to say in general, but more so am wondering out loud why at times i can exhibit extroverted behavior. This was particularly so in college. I attended three campuses, and once I settled into a group (usually the same major), I was one of the most talkative. I would joke around in class. Go to lunch with big groups and joke around with them there. Bring my guitar on exam days to both calm my nerves and play for the class. And I noticed that I could be some sort of associate or friendship hub. Hmmm how do I explain? Don't know why, but you know how there can be different personalities/genre's/ethnicity's (especially so in Hawaii), each type was very comfortable with approaching and talking to me. I studied in group sessions. And preferred company more often than solitude. Sounded extroverted to me. So, what changed?
Now the book sounds interesting enough... and I'm intrigued enough to consider buying it myself. I guess where I do question it, is I don't want it to be an excuse that introverts can point at. Like I said, there can be extreme cases of introversion that can be unhealthy. (As I type this I am reminded of the amazing anime Eden of the East). Who it sounds like it would be better for is for all the extroverts who don't understand introverts. But why would they want to read such a book when the society we live in caters to their type already? I guess I'm interested in the introvert success stories and the tips and pointers that can make an introvert successful in an extroverted world.
Phew, sorry for the diatribe.
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teknoketa
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: |
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I think in my case there are a number of things that probably go in to it. I've always had a nagging suspicion that I might have a touch of something off kilter in my neurological wiring, though I think that ultimately it doesn't really matter if I do or not. I tend to strike people as extremely eccentric, which I suppose is accurate. I don't "get" how people work, and have genuinely studied scenarios of the right way to respond to social situations because oftentimes the right response doesn't actually connect with me. If I'm in an environment that I feel safe in, I can come across as an extrovert, and even be downright outgoing. However, remove me from my safe place and I'll shut right down. I switch to observation and analysis mode and you'll be lucky to pry two words out of me. I'm genuinely uncomfortable in most social situations. One of the more amusing things about me is that when I go off on an analytical tangent, my speech patterns sound exactly like Morden Solus from ME2, which I didn't even recognize until a friend brought it to my attention XD
I think it might be safe to say asian culture if you include the whole of it, rather than say, just an interest in anime or jrock or manga. If you break it down in to its respective subsets, I don't think the idea would hold out. There is something attractive, though, in a culture that lets you know exactly what the expectations of social interaction are and where what is acceptable and not is rather clearly defined and even refined.
I currently work in a call center (cubicle farm) and I find it is incredibly hard for me to focus to actually work. I am much more productive when I am removed from people because I am not being distracted by irrelevant things or people clamoring for my attention. One of my dreams is for my department to be moved to an isolated area of the building so I can actually work.
I think the key thing to introverts being (or acting) in a way that an introvert might considered extroverted is familiarity. I know it is that way for me to some degree. Unless I'm in a very intellectual venue, then I'll speak up if I have an observation or insight, regardless of comfort level. Oh, and any chance I have to be a mastermind or pull strings behind the scenes... I love to be in charge without being in charge.
I don't get the impression that the book is going to say that genuine psychological issues (such as agoraphobia) are under the umbrella of "introvert". I think in cases like this, introversion is a symptom of the larger overarching issue, not the issue itself.
I know that a lot of my success at work has come in spite of being an introvert. I approach my job with the "wreck the grading curve" mentality. I try to perform at a level where my skill and/or talent is without question. As bad as this may sound, I think "you may not like me, but you can't ignore me" kind of sums up the way I've pursued a lot of things. I give them exceptional results, and in return, I want recognition and to be left the hell alone.
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swollenlymphnodes
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I guess, you always came across as knowing what you want and like... and it's expressed that way when you write. But then again I guess the internet just confuses the heck out of people's sensibilities. Sort of like what initiated this whole tangent of introversion. The 'tex' messaging from Michael and his perception of her lack of response as the cold shoulder. I may have been guilty of projecting the image of a strong-willed, outspoken extrovert girl in your writing.
Anyway, I just went totally unproductive at work this morning chasing these Briggs Myers tests and trying to typecast myself... and it's a mess.
I went from a INFP to a INTP to a INFJ. And they all makes sense to a degree. What the heck am I? It's so convoluted I can see why people actually seek 'professional' administrators for the test. What was very revealing to me is when I took a 70+ question test and I found myself thinking that for certain scenarios, depending on the situation, circumstances, people involved and my mood... I can react in two completely opposite manners at any given moment. This brought me back to the fact that this is definitely not a hard science. You have things like dopamine and seratonin levels changing you at any given moment.
I was also thinking that you likely adjust depending on your role. For example, I can be more of an INTP (Thinker) at work whereas I'm more of a INFJ (Protector) at my church. In the end, my scientific/engineering mind looks at it as having way too many random variables to try to quantify. It's a inhomogeneous differential equation to the infinite order. I seriously think the wave equation for a human just might be more complicated than one that describes the motion of the universe itself. Sigh.
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teknoketa
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Oh I am very sure of what I want and like  I'm also very stubborn and strong-willed and opinionated. I just happen to not be very social. Or maybe I'm anti-social? I generally just don't like to be around people XD
It's not uncommon to get varied results with the test. One of the most common things you'll read is that the results depend on when you're taking them. Everything from your current situation to frame of mind will impact how you answer. They recommend taking the test regularly so that over time you get an idea for what your true type is. For example, I've had my results come up as IXXJ, where X signifies that you're in exact balance between two types. However, what I get most frequently is INTJ, more than any other result.
When it comes to Meyers-Briggs one of the worst things you can do is only take the test one time. If you've got $10 to spare, this is a good book to pick up: Please Understand Me. It gives a lot of insight in to Meyers-Briggs/Keirsey tests.
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GrinfilledCelt
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Sorry. I have way too much to say to the last four or five posts and I don't feel like typing it all up right now. =0p
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teknoketa
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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You've had like... TWO DAYS to type.
Get cracking.
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GrinfilledCelt
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Hey, I'm living in exile here. I don't even have much time to watch any anime let alone write a thesis on the introvert in Japanese culture. Even if I jumped right on it, I wouldn't get it done in time for anyone to care. =0p
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teknoketa
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Then I demand the Cliff Notes™ version.
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jjjynx
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| GrinfilledCelt wrote: | | Sorry. I have way too much to say to the last four or five posts and I don't feel like typing it all up right now. =0p |
I just spend time reading through the stuffs up there I'll be late for work in a moment. |
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swollenlymphnodes
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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wHAT TYPE OF WORK DO YOU DO JJJYNX?
Sorry caps lock. Are you still in the army?
So, I went to two separate Barnes & Nobles so I could browse the book only to fail because they don't have it.
Then I realized that amazon lets you browse a portion. No wonder these stores are going out of business. Sad if you ask me. Anyway, bit the bullet and ordered it, since I can't wait for keta's glowing review.
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